Curse

Drakken Breathes Fire · Mar 23, 2008, 04:53 PM // 16:53

Blood Magic is a necromancer secondary attribute.

No inherent effect. Many Necromancer skills, especially spells that damage and steal health from your foes, become more effective with higher Blood Magic.

Very LITTLE direct damage.
To say the very very least.

Truthfully, It's a skill attribute set that seems to primarily attribute to life stealing, saccing, and energy management. (really, just saccing to do any of the aforementioned.)

Energy management? Yes, it's true. But why do we need more? We have Soul Reaping already. Which is apparently already borked. However through blood, we have the option of playing a battery for energy AND health for our entire party. This is cool if you like support, this doesn't need to be fixed or changed at all. It's very good.

Life Stealing? Yes, we have a little bit of this in Blood Magic. a LOT of skills pertain to life stealing, be that direct life stealing or via regen gained from degen of a target monster for a period of time. Are these useful? No.
Because they are life stealing skills, and ignore armor//protection prayers skills, the amount of life stolen is ALWAYS very very low. The recharge and cast time on these skills are also very very high. (Especially the better skills in the line. There must always be a drawback to the blood line.)

We have life stealing in the curses line too. Insidious parasite for example, in one casting, is more powerful than the elite spells from the Blood Magic Line; Life Transfer and Ravenous Gaze, and subsequently, because it's in the curses line of spells will stay that way.

By direct comparison; At lvl 16 curses and blood;

Insidious parasite at 16 curses, on a monster attacking once every 1.33 seconds, that monster receives 517 damage which you gain as life in its full duration. With a twelve Second Recharge, this skill can both be kept up indefinitely, AND be cast on multiple targets.

Life Transfer, the elite version of Life Siphon, at 16 blood magic this skill does 16 health degeneration per second, which you gain as regeneration. Nifty. Provided it's not removed prematurely, you can ideally drain 192 health from a target foe. However, with it's doubled cast time compared to insidious parasite, its easily interrupted (even by human players.)
It's 30 second recharge makes it near impossible to cast on multiple targets without a 20//20 wand and off hand AND Archane Echo. It's damage is also less than half of Insidious Parasite, left unchecked. An all but useless skill.

Ravenous Gaze at 16 blood magic steals 31 health, and an additional 95 if you yourself are below 50% health. This is a fair bit of life stealing. It down right HURTS. With a 5 second recharge you'd assume this skill could be semi-spammable for a grand total of 126 life stolen each cast, provided you stay *under* 50% health to do so. At best you could fire this off once or twice before a monk heals you or the skill itself heals you to full if not just to the 50% mark this skill needs in order to become useless.

Clip note for the lazy who dont want to read this 'novel;'

Insidious Parasite;

517 health stolen potentially on multiple targets in 12 seconds.

Life Transfer;

192 Life regenerated from 192 life degenerated from a single target foe every 32 seconds.

Ravenous Gaze;

31 health stolen from a single target every 5 seconds. Unless by some miracle you find yourself below 50% health and your monk does not heal you knowing you are going to use Ravenous Gaze, at which point you steal 31+95 health from a single target foe once every 5 seconds.

These are just two of many examples of Blood Magic Elites that are completely and utterly out classed, out dated, and have no practical use in either form of play.

C'mon, seriously? Offering of Blood? Jesus!

Orders are also non stackable. They still have potential to be good though.

Soul Leech and Spoil Victor have nothing wrong with them.

Cultists fervor and Vampiric Spirit are up to debate. I think Cultists can be very good in conjunction with Masochism, however, those 2 skills do not make up a full bar. And a build saccing that much should be using it's Elite for something better, like Orders, or BiP or better.

Discuss.

(Understand I have little experience in PVP. I HAVE pvped I've heard of the term bloodspike. This is a general over view and opinion please avoid flaming, 'mad libbing' and masturbating in this thread because you use a better build than so and so. This is meant to provoke thought and suggestions as to any changes that can or should or shouldn't be made to the Blood Magic line.)

MrGuildBoi · Mar 23, 2008, 05:01 PM // 17:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by Drakken Breathes Fire

Orders are also non stackable. They still have potential to be good though.

I thought Dark Fury and Order of Pain were stabkable o.O

Drakken Breathes Fire · Mar 23, 2008, 05:05 PM // 17:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by MrGuildBoi

I thought Dark Fury and Order of Pain were stabkable o.O

No necromancer enchantment stacks with Order of the Vampire.
That's the one I meant.

Loli Krasivaya · Mar 23, 2008, 05:07 PM // 17:07

Offering of Blood?

Touch rangers...

And I wasn't quite sure if you got this, but insidious is curses.

Drakken Breathes Fire · Mar 23, 2008, 05:10 PM // 17:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by Loli Krasivaya

Offering of Blood?

Touch rangers...

And I wasn't quite sure if you got this, but insidious is curses.

Let's not get into touch rangers.
They probably contribute to half the Blood Magic hate in the game.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Drakken Breathes Fire

By direct comparison; At lvl 16 curses and blood;

Insidious parasite at 16 curses, on a monster attacking once every 1.33 seconds, that monster receives 517 damage which you gain as life in its full duration. With a twelve Second Recharge, this skill can both be kept up indefinitely, AND be cast on multiple targets.

I did get that insidious parasite was curses.

snaek · Mar 23, 2008, 05:12 PM // 17:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by MrGuildBoi

I thought Dark Fury and Order of Pain were stabkable o.O

Yeah, Order of Pain is stackable. The elite version, Order of Vampire, is not. It would make more sense for Order of Vampire to be stackable since it is elite. That's just my opinion. -___-'

Anyways, blood nukers are quite decent. Sure, not as powerful as ele nukers and others, but it has 3 advantages:

Defense is useless against them (save for shutdown tactics).
They heal themselves at the same time.
The same magic line also has support skills (one doesn't need to use a second attribute for heals and support).

Just don't expect to be able to do the same damage as a traditional nuker.

Mod edit: Please try to type in proper English (if you can). We have a policy on this. Please review our rules.

Alex the Great · Mar 23, 2008, 05:14 PM // 17:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by Drakken Breathes Fire

please avoid flaming, 'mad libbing' and masturbating in this thread

i don't think you'll have to worry dude, most people use different websites for that

MithranArkanere · Mar 23, 2008, 05:18 PM // 17:18

Order of pain can be stacked with one of the other orders. The rest are elites, so a single character cannot bring them all. But they can be equiped by different characters to be able to bring them all.

Life stealing a dark spell damage are armor ignoring. So it's normal that most Blood magic skills are 'expensive'.

Drakken Breathes Fire · Mar 23, 2008, 05:24 PM // 17:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by MithranArkanere

Order of pain can be stacked with one of the other orders. The rest are elites, so a single character cannot bring them all. But they can be equiped by different characters to be able to bring them all.

Life stealing a dark spell damage are armor ignoring. So it's normal that most Blood magic skills are 'expensive'.

But they're not expensive, they just suck.

Shadow damage cannot be protected against by armor, However Spiteful Spirit, Mark of Pain, and a number of curses spells, deal this aswell, and are capable o DECIMATING mobs completely.

All spells that steal life in the Blood line have horrendous cast times and effect very limited targets.

All spells in the Blood line that deal shadow damage require touching, saccing, OR both, which places the squishy little necro into direct line of fire.
(Whereas a curses necro can do this from out of harms way with multiple skills, the only two that come to mind in blood are Shadow Strike, Lifebane Strike, and Dark Pact. All of which are highly conditional, sacrifice health, and deal minimal damage to a single target, provided the conditions for the Shadow//Lifebane Strikes aren't met. Need I also mention, even if they are met, they still have 2 second cast time and are easily interrupted by human players?)

placebo overdose · Mar 23, 2008, 05:48 PM // 17:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by snaek

yea, teh oop is stackable....
teh elite oov is not

it would make more sense for teh elite oov to be to stackable instead...
since its an elite
but thats jus my opinion -___-'

anyways...blood nukes r quite decent
sure its not as powerful as ele nuke, etc
but it has 3 bonuses:
1) cant be defended against (purely from defensive, not offensively shuttin down)
2) it heals u at teh same time
3) teh same magic line has support skills (so u dun have to put pts in a 2nd attrib for heals/support)

dun expect to be able to do teh same amount of dmg as a nuker

1st please talk like you didnt just have a bolt rammed through your skull
2nd oov and oop together is not good and was nerfed because of it

Nevin · Mar 23, 2008, 06:01 PM // 18:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by Drakken Breathes Fire

[URL="http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Blood_Magic#Blood_Magic_skills"]Blood Magic is a necromancer secondary attribute.

(Understand I have little experience in PVP. I HAVE pvped I've heard of the term bloodspike. This is a general over view and opinion please avoid flaming, 'mad libbing' and masturbating in this thread because you use a better build than so and so. This is meant to provoke thought and suggestions as to any changes that can or should or shouldn't be made to the Blood Magic line.)

Woops, shoulda read from the bottom up; sorry I broke one of the rules.

Coloneh · Mar 23, 2008, 06:05 PM // 18:05

blood needs a buff. a big one. but the problem that comes with life stealing skills is that they can very quickly become overpowered. take a look at the old bloodspike, executed correctly there was simply no way to survive it. if life stealing skills become powerful they will easily take over PvP

Drakken Breathes Fire · Mar 23, 2008, 06:09 PM // 18:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by Coloneh

blood needs a buff. a big one. but the problem that comes with life stealing skills is that they can very quickly become overpowered. take a look at the old bloodspike, executed correctly there was simply no way to survive it. if life stealing skills become powerful they will easily take over PvP

Truth be told, that's what it comes down to in the end.
Any repair done to blood magic makes it 'cheap' in pvp.
Anything cheap in pvp gets nerfed. (Like the old Bloodspike.)
They literally nerfed blood magic yet again in the last week or so.
Angorodons was 'too powerful.'

Gift3d · Mar 23, 2008, 06:26 PM // 18:26

The only necro skills in Blood Magic i see are bip/br, sv, and awaken the blood.

The rest are ranger skills.

Nevin · Mar 23, 2008, 06:26 PM // 18:26

Life Siphon and Life Transfer should affect adjacent foes as well. Perhaps Life Transfer should cause weakness or some sort of condition? If you truly think about it. Target foe is having the "life" taken from them, weakness.. crippled... bleeding, these should be conditions linked with many of the blood magic skills.

Blood magic is good for other professions... As support it helps casters and melee fighters (Bip/Orders), as a secondary (Touchers), but really blood magic doesn't really help support the Necromancer himself as much as you think it would. How about some resistance enchants?
Vampiric Weapon, and Vengeful Was Who ever (Rit skills), are more along the lines of what blood magic should've been like.

C2K · Mar 23, 2008, 06:59 PM // 18:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by Drakken Breathes Fire

No necromancer enchantment stacks with Order of the Vampire.
That's the one I meant.

You can thank IWAY for that. Order of the Vampire was stackable at one time, but IWAY abused the hell out of it. Thats why Order is teh suck.

Your Life transfer argument isn't that strong either because you are comparing it with skills that you can't compare it too. You should try Corrupt Enchantment or Conjure Nightmare.

Drakken Breathes Fire · Mar 23, 2008, 07:20 PM // 19:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by C2K

You can thank IWAY for that. Order of the Vampire was stackable at one time, but IWAY abused the hell out of it. Thats why Order is teh suck.

Your Life transfer argument isn't that strong either because you are comparing it with skills that you can't compare it too. You should try Corrupt Enchantment or Conjure Nightmare.

How do either of those cause regeneration of your own health equal to the degeneration of the target foe(s)?

As far as Corrupt Enchantment goes, it's GOOD, Life Transfer is not.
Fast recharge, same degeneration, removes an enchantment. Can be kept up nearly indefinitely too. You can cast this 3 times before Life Siphon Recharged once.

Conjure nightmare is always static -8 degeneration. The only thing that changes with more points in illusion magic is the duration. Which isn't really necessary due to the fact it only has 5 seconds recharge. It can almost always be kept up indefinitely after illusion magic 3 or higher. (And cast on multiple targets.) Conjure nightmare, by comparison is GOOD, Life Transfer is not. You can cast this 5 times before Life Transfer Recharged once.

Life Transfers purpose is to create degeneration while granting it's blood sucking user regeneration. It ranges from -3 to -8 for 6 to 13 seconds. It recharges in 30 seconds. Life transfer is a BAD skill. It's duration sucks compared to it's non elite counterpart. It's recharge compared to it's non elite form and pretty much EVERY degeneration based skill, sucks. the only thing it has on it's non elite form is cast time and energy cost. (A difference of 1 second and 5 energy. Given the recharge though, I could effectively cast Life Siphon on 6-7 more targets before life Transfer recharged once.)

Let's also look at Reapers Mark. This skill causes -5 degeneration for 30 seconds. (WOW!) and if the foe dies while suffering from this hex, you gain 16 energy. Recharge of 15 cast time of 1, you can fire this off 1.8 times in the time it takes Life Transfer to recharge once, it's linked to Soul Reaping which EVERY Necromancer has at a high to middle high value, and the energy cost more than pays for itself. Compared to Life Transfer, this is a great skill. Life Transfer again, is a bad skill.

RiKio · Mar 23, 2008, 07:38 PM // 19:38

If Blood Magic is buffed, I will become overpowered:

-IWAY
-BoonProts
-Touchers
-B-Spike
-B-spike 2.0
-B-Spike 3.0
-B-Spike 4.0
-IWAY 2.0 ( Zerg)
-Ranger-Spike

Drakken Breathes Fire · Mar 23, 2008, 07:53 PM // 19:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by RiKio

If Blood Magic is buffed, I will become overpowered:

-IWAY
-BoonProts
-Touchers
-B-Spike
-B-spike 2.0
-B-Spike 3.0
-B-Spike 4.0
-IWAY 2.0 ( Zerg)
-Ranger-Spike

IWAY? Wrong. This build *NEVER* used Ravenous Gaze or Life Transfer. It relied on Orders, which, as I've already pointed out, are fine as they are.

BoonProts?

Quote:

Originally Posted by pvxwiki

This stupidly simple build uses Divine Boon in concert with numerous protection spells to combine both the "red-bar-goes-up" effects of many Healing Prayers and the "not-sucking-at-life-like-Healing-Prayers" effects of Protection Prayers. When used with simple energy management that a hero can understand, the Boonprot becomes a versatile healer/protter that can (and has been) used throughout every chapter of Guild Wars.

What does this have to do with Necromancers, or much less, Blood Magic, aside form a variation that used Offering of Blood?

Quote:

Originally Posted by pvxwiki

Since the nerf to Offering of Blood so that it sacrifices 20% of your Health instead of 10%, the Mo/Me Boon Prot with Mantra of Recall or Energy Drain replacing OoB is much more common.

Since the nerf to Mesmer energy management and to Divine Boon, Boon Prots aren't common altogether.

Touchers? Will ALWAYS exist. It will ALWAYS have counters too. That's the nature of the game. Adapt. Grow. (In this scenario the counters are also very very simple.)

B-Spike X.X? Will ALWAYS exist. It will ALWAYS have counters too. That's the nature of the game. Adapt. Grow.

IWAY 2.0 ( Zerg)? Wrong. *see IWAY.

netniwk · Mar 23, 2008, 08:00 PM // 20:00

Boonprots use offering of blood for E-management,but I agree with you, blood is the weakest link of all the necromancers atributes.